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Template talk:Cipher
Reorganization I believe the template needs some reorganization for a better structure. Here's what I come up with: |header=Fire Emblem 0 (Cipher) |style1 = ; color: #fff |header1 = Contents |subheader1-1 = Starter Decks |subcontent1-1 = S01: War of Darkness - S02: Awakening - S03: Birthright - S04: Conquest - S05: Path of Radiance - S06: Tokyo Mirage Sessions ♯FE - S07: Binding Rebellion |subheader1-2 = Booster Series |subcontent1-2 = B01: Warblade of Heroes - B02: Soulful Flames of Light and Dark - B03: Dual Swords of Hope - B04: Glittering Concert of Illusions - B05: Beyond Strife |subheader1-3 = Card Lists |subcontent1-3 = Promo - B01 - B02 - B03 - B04 - B05 |header2 = Characters |subheader2-1 = Original Characters |subcontent2-1 = Emma - Shade - Yuzu - Lando |subheader2-2 = Archanea |subcontent2-2 = |subheader2-3 = Ylisse |subcontent2-3 = |subheader2-4 = Hoshido |subcontent2-4 = |subheader2-5 = Nohr |subcontent2-5 = - |subheader2-6 = Tellius |subcontent2-6 = - |subheader2-7 = Elibe |subcontent2-7 = - |subheader2-8 = Jugdral |subcontent2-8 = - }} Thoughts? -- [[User:KhangND|'Khang']] (talk) 05:19, July 5, 2016 (UTC) :That's probably the best way to do it, divide the characters by continent (color technically?) instead of by set. I'd say go for it? I wonder if we should make a similar template for the old TCG too (though instead of Original characters we'd have a section for generics?)--Otherarrow (talk) 13:32, July 5, 2016 (UTC) :The problem I see with that is you lose a lot of information by streamlining it like that. With the current template, you can click on it and instantly see where certain characters appear in the different sets. I'm also concerned about how characters would be organized within each section. Tsubasa debuted earlier in Cipher than Hardin or Michalis, would she be wedged between them and Marth? Or would she be at the back because TMS is such a new game? --James Pierce (talk) 20:08, July 5, 2016 (UTC) ::If we chose to divide by continent and not color (which would also mean merging the Hoshido/Nohr sections, not that is a big deal), it'd probably be better to give TMS it's own section (it doesn't help that the TMS cast are pretty much divided between Red and Blue based on their Mirage Partners).--Otherarrow (talk) 21:38, July 5, 2016 (UTC) ::We have to take the loss, honestly, I think sorting characters' appreances by set kinda takes too much effort and appears quite messy on the template. Also, each character is going to have a Cipher section on their page, that would cover their appearances in sets well enough, no? But yeah, our concern should be how we divide the characters. I missed the TMS part. =/ -- [[User:KhangND|'Khang']] (talk) 00:02, July 6, 2016 (UTC) ::Well I suppose what I would do then is group them by colour like you've done, and list them alphabetically. For simplicity I would merge the TMS characters in with their respective colour. I would also remove the original character line and merge them with the colours they appear in. I think having a line with only four characters is a little unsightly, and we already have multi colour characters in Anna, Xander, and others anyway.--James Pierce (talk) 00:29, July 7, 2016 (UTC) :::Unlike Anna, Xander, etc, the Cipher originals haven't appeared anywhere else, and just mixing them in with the others kinda ignores that fact and obscures them. (As for their being only four, they will likely introduce more as more sets come out.)--Otherarrow (talk) 01:13, July 7, 2016 (UTC) ::::My concern is that segregating them out devalues them as Fire Emblem characters. Emma doesn't have an asterisk next to her Hoshido emblem, she is meant to be treated like any other unit. I also don't think we should expect a lot of new characters now that every class niche has been met, unless they liberally retire and replace characters. --James Pierce (talk) 02:39, July 7, 2016 (UTC) :::::Cipher is Fire Emblem product. They are Fire Emblem characters. They are also characters exclusive to Cipher, used to represent Cipher in publicity materials, and have no set setting or even class. Basically, they are whatever the designers need them to be. As for every class niche we have...a flier, a mage, a cavalier and a misc-foot class. That is hardly every class niche. No thief? No healer? No axe fighter? No dedicated bow user? But I digress; by trying to mix them in with the others, we a.obscure them and devalue them by putting them next to game characters who they can't compare to and b.run into the problem of what they actually count as, as their classes and faction are in constant flux. It's easier to just list them separately. (while I'm here, I am not sure if we should list by color either, though I am not an expert on how Cipher is organized)--Otherarrow (talk) 02:53, July 7, 2016 (UTC) ::::::We already have an axe fighter, archer and bishop cards for Yuzu and Shade. Adding in a dedicated archer, healer or axe fighter would be redundant. I strongly believe all the characters should be listed in all the factions that they appear in. Tiki is sold as both an Archanean and Ylissean card, she should be listed in both categories in the template. Likewise the Cipher originals should be listed in each section because it gives readers information about how they fit into the greater Cipher game. Listing them in their own section tells a reader very little, but showing that Emma can be found in Ylisse, Hoshido, and Tellius tells them so much. --James Pierce (talk) 04:31, July 7, 2016 (UTC) :::::::Seems like no matter how we choose to divide them, either by continent or color, we can't avoid the repetition of some characters' appearances, few or many, through sections in the template, due to their production. -- [[User:KhangND|'Khang']] (talk) 07:57, July 7, 2016 (UTC) :I've taken the liberty of modifying it to how I think it should look. |header=Fire Emblem 0 (Cipher) |style1 = ; color: #fff |header1 = Contents |subheader1-1 = Starter Decks |subcontent1-1 = S01: War of Darkness - S02: Awakening - S03: Birthright - S04: Conquest - S05: Path of Radiance - S06: Tokyo Mirage Sessions ♯FE - S07: Binding Rebellion |subheader1-2 = Booster Series |subcontent1-2 = B01: Warblade of Heroes - B02: Soulful Flames of Light and Dark - B03: Dual Swords of Hope - B04: Glittering Concert of Illusions - B05: Beyond Strife |subheader1-3 = Card Lists |subcontent1-3 = Promo - B01 - B02 - B03 - B04 - B05 |header2 = Characters |subheader2-1 = Archanea |subcontent2-1 =Abel - Astram - Athena - Bantu - Barst - Bord - Caeda - Cain - Camus - Catria - Cord - Draug - Elice - Est - Feena - Gordin - Hardin - Jagen - Jeorge - Julian - Lena - Linde - Malliesia - Mamori Minamoto - Maria - Marth - Matthis - Merric - Michalis - Midia - Minerva - Navarre - Nyna - Ogma - Palla - Roshea - Samto - Sedgar - Sirius - Tiki - Touma Akagi - Tsubasa Oribe - Vyland - Wolf - Wrys - Xane - Yashiro Tsurugi - Yubello - Yumina - Yuzu* |subheader2-2 = Ylisse |subcontent2-2 =Anna - Basilio - Brady - Chrom - Cordelia - Cynthia - Donnel - Eleonora Yumizuru - Emma* - Flavia - Frederick - Gaius - Gerome - Gregor - Henry - Inigo - Itsuki Aoi - Kellam - Kiria Kurono - Kjelle - Laurent - Libra - Lissa - Lon'qu - Lucina - Maribelle - Miriel - Morgan - Nah - Noire - Nowi - Owain - Panne - Priam - Ricken - Robin - Say'ri - Severa - Shade* - Stahl - Sully - Sumia - Tharja - Tiki - Vaike - Virion - Yarne |subheader2-3 = Hoshido |subcontent2-3 =Asugi - Azama - Azura - Caeldori - Camilla - Corrin - Elise - Emma* - Felicia - Hana - Hayato - Hinata - Hinoka - Hisame - Kaden - Kagero - Kana - Kaze - Kiragi - Leo - Midori - Mitama - Mozu - Oboro - Orochi - Reina - Rhajat - Rinkah - Ryoma - Saizo - Sakura - Selkie - Setsuna - Shigure - Shiro - Subaki - Takumi - Xander - Yuzu* |subheader2-4 = Nohr |subcontent2-4 =Anankos - Anna - Arthur - Azura - Benny - Beruka - Camilla - Charlotte - Corrin - Dwyer - Effie - Elise - Flora - Forrest - Garon - Gunter - Hans - Hinoka - Ignatius - Jakob - Keaton - Laslow - Leo - Midori - Niles - Nina - Nyx - Odin - Ophelia - Percy - Peri - Ryoma - Sakura - Selena - Shade* - Siegbert - Silas - Soleil - Sophie - Takumi - Velouria - Xander - Yuzu* |subheader2-5 = Tellius |subcontent2-5 =Aran - Astrid - Bastian - Black Knight - Boyd - Edward - Elincia - Emma* - Ena - Gatrie - Geoffrey - Greil - Haar - Heather - Ike - Ilyana - Jill - Kieran - Kurthnaga - Laura - Leanne - Leonardo - Lethe - Lucia - Lyre - Marcia - Meg - Mia - Micaiah - Mist - Muarim - Naesala - Nailah - Nephenee - Nolan - Oliver - Oscar - Ranulf - Reyson - Rhys - Rolf - Sanaki - Shade* - Shinon - Sigrun - Soren - Sothe - Tanith - Tibarn - Titania - Tormod - Vika - Volke - Volug - Zihark |subheader2-6 = Elibe |subcontent2-6 =Alen - Bors - Cecilia - Chad - Clarine - Dieck - Elen - Eliwood - Fae - Fir - Hector - Juno - Klein - Lance - Lando* - Lilina - Lot - Lugh - Lyn - Marcus - Merlinus - Narcian - Nino - Perceval - Roy - Rutger - Shanna - Sophia - Sue - Thite - Wade - Wolt |subheader2-7 = Jugdral |subcontent2-7 =Adean - Arvis - Deirdre - Ethlyn - Lewyn - Quan - Raquesis - Sigurd |note2 = * Original characters }} This is the general idea.--James Pierce (talk) 21:55, July 7, 2016 (UTC) :Calling a promoted Bishop a Healer (especially since Bishop!Shade still uses Tomes like her other forms, and not Staves) or a promoted Hero an Axe Fighter is kinda pushing it (while Yuzu really does seem to be "whatever foot class", I somehow doubt they will make her a muscular and/or scantily clad Axe Fighter considering her gimmick as the "slender myrmidon character") and saying a Cipher Original Cleric or Axe Fighter would be "redundant" would be like saying "why do we need Lena when Merric exists?". But I am getting off topic; to sum up I don't think we should assume they'd stop adding original characters and related to that, I still think we should at least do something to point out their Cipher Original status instead of letting them blend in with the game characters. :As for division, with your mock up I am noticing that the "characters who appear under multiple colors" seem pretty slim, much less than I thought. At most it's, what, Anna, Tiki, Xander (and presumable Ryoma? I wouldn't give up that parallelism), and the Fates characters not set to a faction? We could probably reduce repetition by dividing by continent instead of color (as that'd reduce it to Anna and Tiki, though does the Fates continent even have a name?) but that might be going against the spirit of respecting the in game division. Either way, yeah, whichever is still much preferable to just listing them by set. Sorry for rambling.--Otherarrow (talk) 00:23, July 8, 2016 (UTC) ::Confirmed multi faction characters would include Tiki, Anna, Emma, Shade, Yuzu, Corrin, Azura, Xander, Camilla, Leo, Elise, Ryoma, Hinoka, Takumi, Sakura, Kana, and Midori; we can also expect Lando, Kaze, Felicia, Jakob, Shigure, Dwyer, and the Whitewings to join them as well. Adding an extra line for the originals just doesn't make sense to me. We don't segregate Ike and Micaiah on the Radiant Dawn template for obvious reasons, why should the Cipher template be different?--James Pierce (talk) 01:40, July 8, 2016 (UTC) :So basically, Tiki, Anna, the Cipher originals, and characters from Fates. I am not sure if we'd ever get a Gaiden set (in favor of more Fates sets likely) but them and Camus would likely sneak in if one was made. I don't understand your comparison, this is nothing like that. This is more like separating the DLC characters from the Awakening original characters, only this time the Cipher original characters are the minority ones. But it's not a big deal if no one else goes for it. As long as we have some way to point them out.--Otherarrow (talk) 02:34, July 8, 2016 (UTC) ::Then we can use asterisk. Check out the above template if it settles. -- [[User:KhangND|'Khang']] (talk) 15:22, July 8, 2016 (UTC) :::That's a compromise I can live with.--James Pierce (talk) 18:59, July 8, 2016 (UTC) :::Likewise. That should work fine for my nitpicks.--Otherarrow (talk) 19:20, July 8, 2016 (UTC) ::::All right then James Pierce, if you please, complete the above template before we replace. Nice work everyone =] -- [[User:KhangND|'Khang']] (talk) 01:02, July 9, 2016 (UTC) :::::It's good to go.--James Pierce (talk) 17:53, July 9, 2016 (UTC)